seen · N^o2134

While we were in Paris, we had a chance to meet up with SEEN for a studio visit and more than a few drinks. SEEN is well known as the godfather of graffiti, having painted countless pieces on New York subway trains throughout the late 1970s and early 1980s. His iconic work also made its way into galleries, and SEEN became known for his bold renditions of superheroes on canvases. In this interview, fellow graffiti writer RISK, who accompanied Citizens of Humanity to Paris, talks to SEEN about his early influences, commercial work and favorite piece ever.


When did you learn how to drive?
I like that, you know why? The first question they usually ask me is when did you start writing on the train? Let me tell you something, I was driving way before I had a license, and those were good times. First time behind a wheel, I was 14 years old. In New York, you are able to get a permit at 16 and if you took driver’s ed, you could get a license at 17. I never got my license until I was 20, maybe 21. I drove with nothing for the longest time. Back then, it was so easy, you didn't have to worry about driving without a license. When I finally went, my brother told me, "They're going to tell you to park and when you reverse to park do not hit the curb. If you hit the curb, they're going to fail you automatically." Let me tell you, I was a wiz at driving, but when I got behind the wheel with the driving instructor and had to back into a spot, what do you think I do?


You hit the curb.
No, I climbed on top of the curb. The tree that was there almost crushed the car door. God’s honest truth. So after I did that, he tells me, “Pull out and proceed to go back.” I stop and I'm with the guy and I say, "Let me tell you something, I've been driving for a long time without a license. I'm all panicky now that I'm under pressure over here." Long story short is, in the end, the guy passed me; I guess he understood the situation. I did everything wrong and they still passed me.


Since we are talking about your childhood… Your shows are usually superhero-related, whether it is graffiti-connected superheroes or some that are more abstract. Do you choose superheroes that you liked as a kid?
Oh yeah, I always go with what I like and know. When I was a kid, my whole life was comic books. I'm gonna be straight with you, I cannot relate to these new comic books today. I cannot relate to what the new Superman or Spiderman look like today. I'm sorry, I'm lost in time; the 1970s are my time. All the characters in mainstream today had to move up to the next level to keep up with the times. Well, I'm sorry to say, in any of my paintings you will not see the new times in them. You'll see Spiderman, but you won't see Spiderman the way he's projected today. I can't do that. It's not me. I have a hard time moving on. I live my life in the past and I'm happy with it. That's who I am. I paint what I like to paint.


When did you start doing more abstract pieces?
The truth of the matter is that when I started painting on trains that was when I was really noticed. And what I did on the trains, it was fun, I loved it, but there was another side to me that people never got to see. I made a mistake when I had the opportunity to start showing this work; I gave people what they wanted to see instead. So, later, when I’d go to a gallery, they'd say, no we want to show this not this. But I don't care anymore about what other people think. I want to be a paid artist, of course, but I don't need to be in the limelight. I want to be an unknown paid artist, if that's possible.


You were one of the first graffiti artists to move into the commercial world. How did that happen and what was that like?
When I was in New York, Chiclets chewing gum approached me. They ask me to paint some panels 4-feet wide and 8-feet tall. So I said to them, "Well what do you want?" They wanted graffiti so I said, "Do you want commercial graffiti or do you want raw, real deal graffiti?" "Oh we want the real thing!" I know they didn't want the real thing, but like a jerk, I give them the real thing. They come back to me asking, "Can you rework this?" Whatever, I'm getting paid every time for everything that I do. It wasn't like nowadays where they try to jerk you around. Three times there's a problem and three times I get paid, so I don't give a fuck, and then finally, I get them in a circle and I say, "Look, let me know right now what you want: commercial graffiti or raw graffiti." Guess what they chose? Commercial graffiti. I said, OK, and I did the commercial graffiti on the boards and everybody was happy, jumping for joy. It was like a Mary Poppins program! It was crazy! Then they hired me to be there for the film shoot with my painting equipment in case there was a touch up needed. Couldn't complain, another fucking five thousand or whatever.

Then I was contacted by a big advertising agency for [the movie] Turk 182. The first day, they bring me to Fox Studios and they put me in a cherry picker on the side of the building. It took me about 20 minutes to paint it. What happens is, I come down out of the cherry picker and nobody says anything. There’s a crowd of people around, and nobody says anything. Then, this white, old-timey Rolls Royce, like something out of the movie, comes up. This old man gets out, swear to god, he looks up, shakes my hand, and as soon as he shakes my hand, he went like this, and the whole fucking crowd decides it's time for them to applaud. I know what the fucking game is at this point: All these motherfuckers are afraid to say anything until the boss says it's OK!

Then I spoke to a woman in charge and I said, "Listen to me—you see my number? Take it out of your Rolodex and don't ever call me again because you people are a bunch of phonies. You guys are worried about your job, you're afraid to say you like something or that you hate something because you're worried about your fucking job." That was a wrap right there. I never did any big commercial projects after that.

Thank you for that, because I got a bunch of jobs after that. I did Michael Jackson, Budweiser, I got everything.
I'm sure you did. Believe me, I got many calls after that, but I said, I'm sorry, this is not for me. I don't need it and I don't give a fuck who you are.



What is your favorite piece you ever painted?
The first one. I had just figured out where the train yard was. There was a parking lot where you could go off the main street and that led you to an area that overlooked the yard and there was a hole in the fence. My first attempt was on a Saturday afternoon in 1973, August or September. I went through the hole into the six yard by myself, and I attempted with these small little cans that I used to use for painting models at the time. I ended up painting a SEEN piece on the back wall of a body shop. I never painted a train that day. I came back with my brother, this time with a full can of Harvest Gold, and a full can of Chinese Red paint, and we went in the yard, second lane in, third rail. We painted my first piece. Harvest Gold fill-in, Chinese Red outline. I never caught a picture of it until a year-and-a-half later. I was coming uptown on the number six train. It stopped at Parkchester and 177th Street, the doors opened across from me, and right on the platform is this SEEN piece. I had a camera in my hand—boom—I snapped a picture and it was a blessing.


The first piece I did on a train was in 1987. I met CHINO and GHOST, and GHOST asked me where I’m from, and I said L.A. He said, “Why do you paint?” I asked, “Why do you?” He said, “I paint because I got trains.” I said, “I paint because I got freeways.” So we went back and forth, and long story short, he said, “Alright, I’ll take you.” I was the first writer from L.A. to bomb trains successfully, and I didn’t think life could get any better. But here I am in Paris, talking to you, and life is good. So when are we going to paint?
Tonight.


Photos by Stefan Kocev for Citizens of Humanity